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Author Topic: Chickens they are roosting?  (Read 886 times)

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Offline michnus

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Chickens they are roosting?
« on: May 17, 2017, 04:27:01 PM »
Want to pick the experts brains a bit.  :deal:


So you most probably have seen the latest incidences with the stanchions on the GS1200 pulling apart like cheese. Is this not the chickens coming home to roost? The big cc bikes now are really heavy pigs and surely one can not expect a 250kg bike to handle such abuse anymore? Yea they can do nice dirt roads and stuff but not what the older versions were able to handle.


I remember when BMW went from the 1150 to the 1200 the boss of BMW at the time said whatever they do they must get the weight down from the 1150 odd 230kg to 200kg or the 1200 which they came close. Also the KTM990s is around the same 200kg weight. With the insatiable need to have for big bikes did we not get to stage where they are just so heavy and seeing that 99% of people never ride them offroad that they just can not handle more rugged type terrain anymore?


Chris Birch throws around a 1090 like a toy and it is not his bike most normal people can't even pop a small wheelie on these bikes. Then of late the #enduroextreme #hardenduro #rallyextreme to describe BMW bikes does not help to keep the myth that the current crop of big cc's are still agile and dual sport adventure bikes instead of just offroad looking road bikes?


We lost the 650cc-ish market because we just want big bikes. And yes with violence anything is possible you can actually break off your own pinky in your own asshole. So you can ride the new bikes like an enduro bike but and if you have the money to repair. Maybe we must step back a bit and do what the old Windhoek light adverts sold. Keep it real? :D

Offline Dual

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Re: Chickens they are roosting?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2017, 04:35:53 PM »
I'm no expert, but it makes sense to have a lighter bike for more aggressive riding - Let "them" bring back the 650cc class, but it seems a thing of the past

I have not yet bought the idea of the 300cc class bike yet, for me, too small, and will it have the legs?

Again, not an expert

Offline michnus

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Re: Chickens they are roosting?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2017, 11:37:45 PM »
Very interesting write up from Eric at Xladv. Funny bit is the Scarf boy in the clip. I now understand where BMW is going.
https://xladv.com/blogs/entry/9-what-i-hate-about-bmw/


  :ImaPoser:
Hopefully the new ATHonda and 800GS would become the new large adventure bikes and hopefully somewhere we can get the 650's back.

What people miss about the small bikes. It's not really for our market. It is essentially for the Latin, Spain, Portugal market. In South America and Central America it is a huuuge market. The people here are going up in the world but love their small cc bikes. They do not want shitty ugly Chinese bikes anymore. They want the Yamaha Tenere look but like its bigger brother, the Verys in a 300cc is what they want. BMW with their 300cc is just running after this massive lucrative market.


The Honda Xr125 and 250 sells like hotcakes in Guatemala and the KTM Duke is also very popular. They are not beginner bikes but commuter bikes. Amazing once a year in Guatemala they have a weekend rally to Rio Dulce with 50000 small cc motorcycles going to the rally

Offline Geotraveller

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Re: Chickens they are roosting?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2017, 07:00:06 AM »
Keep a look out for the 250 tenere there in South America. Pity they don't sell them here.
"No bike does everything perfectly. In fact, no bike does anything until someone gets on it to ride"

Offline adventurer

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Re: Chickens they are roosting?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2017, 07:05:34 AM »
Far too often people buy the wrong bike for the intended purpose, often they expect too much from the tools at hand, in an ideal world we would have 2 bikes, one small one for bundu bashing, and a bigger one for the longer trips, there is no one bike that can do it all, except perhaps in the expert hands of Chris Birch or similar, but for the average joe like most of us, we often expect too much.
I am getting the Kawa Versys 300 to test towards the end of June, and will do my best to try it out on a wide spectrum. Unfortunately I will not compare it to the new Honda 250, due to their 'selective' invites, but here's hoping to see what BMW come up with in the 310 DS option later this year, I hear the motor is very good, and maybe KTM come up with a similar sized DS bike soon as well.
I have a Yamaha 225 Serow which we've had for many years, a very old bike, so it will be interesting to test the 'new' against the 'old'.

Offline Eisbein

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Re: Chickens they are roosting?
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2017, 01:46:18 PM »
Michnus - I think you have a point

The 1150 was an awesome bike and could handle abuse better than what the 1200 can do.
Due to the weight saving on the 1200, if you look at its sump just a little more intently than usual your oil is lying on the ground.

I parked my 1100GS in Baviaans on a rock in Smitskraal with luggage and my wife on the back on its bashplate like a seesaw.
She got off, I rocked it off the rock, she got back on and we continued.
I am convinced if that was the 1200 I would have seen the pretty rainbow coloured rings form around me in the water.

So people make the big bikes lighter to be able to handle them better, but then they also make them softer.
I always go back to the example of the Samil50's and Kwvols we drove in the army.

They were as heavy as tanks (!), but because of the heavy thick steel you could throw anything at them and they'll just rattle out the other side.

You could do quite a lot to an 1150 before it broke (even heavy as it is), but it had a paralever that you could ram a car into and it will still be as straight as an arrow.

On the 1200 you put some luggage on the back, have a big lunch, ride down an Eastern Cape highway and before you know it that arm touches the back wheel.

Horses for courses in big vs small (and lots of good reason to have either), but in my mind a bike is either big and heavy, or it is small and light.
If you make it big and 'light' you end up compromising on something.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 01:48:06 PM by Eisbein »
Encumbered forever by desire and ambition there's a hunger still unsatisfied
Our weary eyes still stray to the horizon, though down this road we've been a hundred times

                                                                   -- Pink Floyd

Offline Geotraveller

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Re: Chickens they are roosting?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2017, 12:30:40 PM »

On the 1200 you put some luggage on the back, have a big lunch, ride down an Eastern Cape highway and before you know it that arm touches the back wheel.
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Offline zebra - flying brick

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Re: Chickens they are roosting?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2017, 08:05:17 AM »
You make a good point, Michnus.

I got excited 2 years back, visiting EICMA, and seeing the launch/pre-launch of the Honda Rally prototype, the AJP 650 as well as the SWM Super-Dual. Now the Versys 300, the KTM 390, the BMW 310 GS shortly, and the CRF 250 Rally,

f-i-n-a-l-l-y there are real choices - some dual sport, some LIGHT offroading only, in the smaller cc sizes, giving people real options away from the 'rush to big/bigger/biggest' bikes.

Got to love the direction some of the market is heading in; small options IN ADDITION TO the behemoths!
Chris
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Offline Geotraveller

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Re: Chickens they are roosting?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2017, 05:28:35 PM »
You make a good point, Michnus.

I got excited 2 years back, visiting EICMA, and seeing the launch/pre-launch of the Honda Rally prototype, the AJP 650 as well as the SWM Super-Dual. Now the Versys 300, the KTM 390, the BMW 310 GS shortly, and the CRF 250 Rally,

f-i-n-a-l-l-y there are real choices - some dual sport, some LIGHT offroading only, in the smaller cc sizes, giving people real options away from the 'rush to big/bigger/biggest' bikes.

Got to love the direction some of the market is heading in; small options IN ADDITION TO the behemoths!
Chris

Agree completely
"No bike does everything perfectly. In fact, no bike does anything until someone gets on it to ride"

Offline michnus

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Re: Chickens they are roosting?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2017, 02:17:24 AM »
What you guys say make sense. Agree with Flying Brick there's nothing wrong with the behemoths, but I got the feeling we were our own worst customers. The brands thought they listened to us as we just wanted bigger, faster and better. And it did not help training schools advocated any person can ride them all they need was the skill and because you know, ego :D

What is funny to me is that suddenly all the rage we went from 1200cc 300kg bikes to 230cc 120kg bikes, no bikes in between? Yes some would say 800cc, well they are still 200kg.

I think I can tell where the huge difference suddenly came in. Although most of you knew for a while now the insanity of 1200cc can't go on into infinity. I mean drop the BS and pull the Triumph Rocket 3 with it's 2.2L and 221nm torque and get it over with. So when the small bikes suddenly appeared it became a huge talking point. And I think most people wanted change not just be told shut up you are a looooser if you can't ride a big bike properly. And insurance and ownership cost.

Where they came from was not for the adventure market or the European market that suddenly wanted small cc commuters. Since we have been through so many countries where the majority of population ride small cc bikes it became obvious where that demand came from. The Spanish, Portuguese, Central America, South American markets are growing and they are not as piss poor anymore. They are tired of the old rubbish looking Chinese offerings. They watch MotoGp and SuperMoto and want their bikes to look the part. They want the look of the big daddy Tenere but not own it, the Versys but hell they have no need for 650cc, they want the Honda AF but not own the damn thing. BMW with their GS, which btw you don't rubbish your epic iconic brand GS away on a commuter. BMW are going to get a hiding. People service and repair their bikes everywhere, pulling BMW terms and trades on these people are not going to go off well with them.

And being a MASSIVE market that's why the majority of the brands now jump that wagon. There is a bike rally in Guatemala every year which now attracts 50000 bikes for the weekend, all less than 300cc. And they pimp their bikes with lights and LED's and what not. And they do 600km round trip for this rally.
In Colombia people are insane, they do easily 1000km on a small 250cc with the wife or girlfriend for holiday and luggage. 

The Yamaha has a small 250cc Tenere, AKT Adventure 250cc Honda XR and CRF are massive sales hits in Central America. Small bikes that looks like street racers are everywhere and you must see their styling and equipment. KTM small Super Duke is a massive hit. They look good!! These bikes mostly have Fi, the KLR, DR, DRZ, XR to this day no Fi, there are just no development in this market. The new Yamaha T7 is going to weigh close to 200kg I am sure of it. Small bike business is big and unfortunately as much as we would have loved to think it was for us they aren't.

Unfortunately the brands to my mind are still not listening to the Adv market and won't for as long as we keep the bigger is better thing going. Dual sport has always been a nice all rounder not a 250kg bike.

Maybe it is too much to ask to have the big bikes and our middle class bike and small ones. I am not really a believer in a one tool for the job kinda guy :D

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